D.J. Paris  0:00  
For our first episode, we're going to talk about the history of victories, and also where we're headed. Stay tuned

Hello, and welcome to men on point, a podcast from victories. My name is DJ Paris, I am your guide and host through the show. And since this is our inaugural episode, I thought it would take a moment to mention what this podcast is all about and what our goals are. Actually first let's let's back up a moment. If you're not familiar with victories, formerly known as victories of the heart, let me tell you more about this organization. Now victories offers a safe and empowering place for men to discover more about themselves, to connect with other men and to build the meaningful life they deserve. We welcome all men wherever they are on their journey. And we invite men to consider our weekend programs as a step on their path of personal growth. Victory supports a healthy masculinity that is affirming and constructive through vulnerability, compassion, communication, and trust. We can make our families, our communities, our world, happy, safe, and vibrant space, so that each and every person can thrive. Okay, so now you have an idea of what victories is all about. But let's talk about this podcast. So men on point has one goal, to keep the conversation going. And that's what we do here. We'll be speaking with men inside and outside the victories organization, having conversations about challenges men face, and how to address those challenges. Along the way, we'll meet authors, filmmakers, therapists, doctors, coaches, and others who have wisdom that men are craving. Now, who am I My name again is DJ Paris, and I went through my first victories weekend in 2010. I've been active in the organization pretty much ever since. And I've attended many events and programs, and have staffed events as well. I currently serve on the Marketing Committee, and I'm really thankful to victories for allowing and trusting me to put this podcast together. I should also note that my comments are mine and mine alone, and are not necessarily representative of victories. I do not speak for the organization. But I am here to facilitate conversation, and also have fun. So let's get started. For our first episode, I thought it would be important to talk to Dr. Paul Kachoris, who has devoted a significant part of his life to victories. I believe this will help men unfamiliar with victories get a better sense of what we do. And for the victories, alumni who are listening right now. Hopefully, this will give you a greater sense of our history, and where we're headed. I appreciate you taking this journey with me. And I'm excited to bring to you some really great guests who have some really great things to say that hopefully will help you in your journey. Oh, one more thing. We need your help. Please share this podcast with everyone you know inside of victories, but also men you know, outside of the organization who you feel could benefit from listening. I thank you in advance for helping us spread the word. And now on to my conversation with Dr. Paul Kachoris.

Today, our guest is Dr. Paul Kachoris from Evanston, Illinois. Paul Kachoris, MD is a triple board certified child, adolescent and adult psychiatrist in the original practice of psychiatry, treating the whole person with both dynamic psychotherapy for the psyche mind, and with psychotropic medication for the brain as needed. He has been in continuous clinical psychiatric practice for nearly 50 years, treating 1000s of patients. In the last 35 years, Paul has dedicated his expertise to victories, co leading breakthrough weekends, and CO creating the original shadow weekend. He has guided victories in many capacities, always seeking to instill the highest psychological principles to enrich the experiences of all victories, participation, participants and staff. Welcome, Paul, we are so excited to have you as the very first guest for men on point.

Dr. Paul Kachoris  4:41  
Thank you. I'm glad to be here. Well, we are glad to have you. Now you've been involved with victories for over 35 years and you're so visible within the organization that it's hard to imagine there was ever a time when you weren't part of victories. How did you first hear

D.J. Paris  5:00  
About victories and what prompted you to explore it?

Dr. Paul Kachoris  5:04  
It's a very, very funny

question and a very funny answer because

I got involved with victory in a very bizarre kind of way. I got involved actually, through Kevin Fitzpatrick, who was is a social worker, and he was working on on my child psychiatric unit. Then he came, he was talking to me about

victories. And I kept thinking to myself, being a psychiatrist, what does all this mean stuff that's not for me. So

it was really very interesting that I was kind of like, well, not really. Like, like all typical men. I didn't really think it had any, any any had any worse for me. So he went through the weekend, several years before I did. And tangentially I also knew Bob Mark, because he lives in Evanston. And Bob Mark is a psychologist. And he's one of the founders of victories because a buddy Portugal, and Bob Mark started victories and back in 1985, in Evanston, and they were both therapists. And so they started having meetings on weekends with men, because because all the women there, patients that they were working with, said, You better do something for men, because they need they need help. Basically, that was it. And so buddy, and a mom started having weekend retreats, and they started it was, was called the men's room back then. Well, anyway, I knew about Mark from Evanston because we were friendly, through the through the school. And so he had asked me to do victories. Before I even talked to Kevin about it, but I told him, No, that's not for me. You know, that's not for psychiatrists. This is for this is for other people. You can, you know, so anyway,

I did do victories in October of 1990.

And it was transformational. That's how I got involved in victories.

D.J. Paris  7:09  
How did it transform you yourself? Because I imagine as a as, as a clinician, as as also a doctor, a medical doctor,

Dr. Paul Kachoris  7:20  
you probably, I would assume started thinking about how it may be applies to your own life, but also how it could help some of your patients as well. I'm curious on the effect it had on you personally. Well, I It wasn't dramatic. I went in on Friday nights. And back in back in those years, we would go home Friday night, then we would go back, because the first weekends were held in Evanston. So I wouldn't we would go back on Saturday morning from morning to evening. And then we would go home and come back Sunday. So we didn't have it was not a retreat like it is now. So I came I went Friday night, it was I was scared to death.

Because I was completely not in my comfort, because I will as a physician, you're always on top. Okay, you're calling the shots. So I forgot all those years beforehand. So this was really very, very alien for me. But I, I did it because I actually trusted Kevin. I think that was really the reason. And he kept telling me that it would be important. So I did, it transformed me. Because on Saturday, the work is very, very deep, and it's very individual. And

it got to a very core piece of my heart. So basically, the answer is it circumvented my brain, and the weekend got to my heart and it cracked me open. And I realized that I've had been keeping myself under lock and key for all all my years, not as a physician, but as a man as a person. So that's what happened at my heart just kind of like, cracked open. And I was able to experience and really talk about my feelings with other men who were doing the same thing. So I found that oh, you can do this.

D.J. Paris  9:11  
Prior to attending that first weekend, did you have those types of intimate, vulnerable conversations with men, friends, family? Or was this filling a need for you that just really hadn't been filled before your first weekend? That's a great question. I was completely isolated, and completely alone. The only men in my life was my brother.

Dr. Paul Kachoris  9:39  
And but no, I hadn't even my closest friends. It was a very superficial. No, that's not something that I was.

felt that I was I wasn't supposed to do that as a man at that point. Because usually we're talking about 5060 years ago that was even there was a different climate. I grew up with

men didn't talk about anything.

So I wasn't brought up in that tradition. So I had no one until it, it shocked me that men could really talk because I had those feelings in me. But I was terrified

to admit them.

When you found that there was a comfortable and safe place with a structure for safety, that allowed you to connect with other men in a way that you hadn't before ever, what did that do for your life?

Oh, my God, it was an explosion. Well, first of all, it exploded my relationship, deepen my relationship with my wife, and my three, my three children. They didn't know what the hell happened to me. But it was a wonderful thing, because it really just transformed my life. Personally, within, and even with some friends, but it also transformed my life. This is really significant. As a psychiatrist, I realized that I was

not good enough,

as, as a psychiatrist or as a psychotherapist, that I was I realized that, that I became more effective, working with my patients, because I was able to touch my own emotional feelings and know what they were like. And then therefore, I could also then help men and women and anybody who came to my office, it just transformed the depth of my practice.

Prior to attending victories, I'm curious, professionally as as a, as a as a medical, you know, professional. I'm curious on, did you understand the importance of talk therapy and getting more into the emotions? Because of course, psychiatry traditionally, is a medical model of treatment, where you're looking for medical solutions, did you prior to victories have a good awareness of the importance of of psychotherapy, or adding that in to complement the medical model?

Well, I was brought up having, having been trained to do psychotherapy, because as a child psychiatrist, I also worked with children. And so I was really, I was trained, very Freudian, and very young, gay. And so back, when I did went through the through the psychiatry, psychiatrists were trained to do the psychotherapy and medication it was, it's changed. Now, that's not the way it is. But I was brought up and I was trained to, I had the formal training. I had, I don't know how to do all of that. But I guess what I really got was it became more relevant and more significant. And that was, the work that I was doing was more significant than ever, for me personally. And but I was always able to do very good work with my patients. Because I guess what I'm saying to you is that my personality was coming through even though I was not aware of what I was doing, because I was really connecting on a very deep level with everybody I worked with,

how did it affect your your private practice, where you're now able to have had connections yourself, where you're able to do your own work within victories during the weekend, you talked about how coming home your kids, your wife, said, Wow, what Dad's dad's dad, you know, and Paul has they've changed, he's changed and he is is becoming, you know, maybe a better version of what they knew before you or a more whole version. I'm curious and how it also affected your relationships with your patients.

I think that you touched on it, I think the word whole it made, it made me feel very connected with all of myself. So I didn't have fears any longer, that I could really probably push the emotional level more with my patients. I think also, it transformed me from just being a very cognitive because that's, I had all that cognitive experience. So I was able to touch my limbic system, my emotional system more. And it it really helped me to become more human, I guess, I think that I maybe it was a much more structured cognitive psychiatrists knowing how to do it, oh, I could do the psychotherapy, I can get you the medication. I could do family therapy. I could do play therapy, I can do everything. But I think what I think I added the humanistic factor, however you want to talk about it. I think that if anybody would ask me today, what kind of a psychiatrist Are you? I would say, Oh, I'm a humanistic psychiatrist. And I treat the mind and the body and you know, so if you need medication, I'll give it to you. But I don't Only medication is the number one answer. But we are the brain is an organ that attacked like the liver. And so it goes wrong. And so you got to know how to work with neurotransmitters but it became more humanistic as the answer.

If that makes any sense.

It makes perfect sense. It sounds like you were able to maybe even understand more about what your patients emotionally are dealing with and having some experiences yourself of transformation. Yeah,

yeah. Well, you just bring tears to my eyes, because that's exactly what happened. And I think you captured it better than I could even say it, which was scary, serious. I mean, what happened?

I'm, I'm glad that to hear that in your own in your own words. And so you got home from your your original weekend, you were transformed your family sees changes in you. And and then how did you continue to be involved in victories because there's a lot of a lot of men who, you know, they attend an event, they have an, whether it's a victories event or another organization, they have a powerful experience, and, and then maybe they don't continue on with their work for whatever reason, but you you did. And so I'm curious on how then you got involved with the organization even more so?

Well, I think, one because of the, the awakened me, and I write poetry. So I ended up writing a poem about my weekend, which is called the armadillo. But that's another story. But, but I, I realize the significance for me, but it hit me the significance of other men. And it became a passion for me this is I realized that that I had been living under this whole rubric of maybe not, not toxic masculinity, but a very close masculinity. And I realized that, that I needed it. And once I needed it, and I was in connection with Buddy and Bob and with Kevin, it was, it became very important, my relationship with them, but also, I felt it was important to take my knowledge and use it for men. And I just felt that I it became a mission for me, I found a purpose, other than being a psychiatrist and treating people, which is great. And I mean, I'm grateful. That's a great profession that I have. But this was another add on. Okay, this became something really passionate. And I decided that this this would be a good way for me to use my knowledge, my academic knowledge and my personal knowledge for victories. And so I decided I wanted to serve,

serve victories and men.

And serve you have I believe you've likely bid on just about every every committee that exists within victories, and there are many you have served and continue to serve on their board. And how long have you been part of victories leadership now has it been since basically that very first weekend? Yeah, because

you see, once once I did the weekend that buddy and Bob wanted to expand victory. So then they hooked Kevin and I, because we were friends and be white. So that's so we started doing brick while back at that time, we call them the in the men's room. And, and so the first few times, we did them at Central partners, which was the facility in Evanston. But then back in two, three years later, back in the early 90s, Barry and Bob did move them to residential. And so they took Kevin and I on the, on the first written the first residential that buddy and Bob did, they took Kevin and ion. And so then we were apprentice with them. And then we started with, we began having a running weekends, ourselves. We ran two weekends. A year and Buddy ran two weekends a year. And then we continue then we added other men, and so the leadership for them. So I've been actually in leadership pretty much from the beginning.

And even more than just serving and helping grow the organization, which you continue to do all these years later. You also have created programming for victories in particular. So we were just talking about what what maybe today would be known as the break through weekend. I don't know if it what it was called back back that maybe was I forgot, was it called just the weekend.

Actually, it was really interesting. Of course, it was called the men's room. Then we evolved in recall of the call to the initial weekend. Okay. But that was kind of lame, because it didn't mean anything. And so we brainstorm back along the way until we all we sat down one day, a bunch of us, and we put like if I plug 500 names on the wall, and we finally came through with the word breakthrough because that's what happens. We finally figured that's when we decided to call it a breakthrough

around the topic. Yeah, I would love for any one of our listeners or viewers who isn't familiar with the breakthrough weekend, could you just give us a little taste of of what what that is, and you know, what men, you know, without giving away all of all of the the fun things that men learn once they're there, but just sort of why people attend? Well,

there's a million reasons why why men end up going on the weekend. But the breakthrough basically, is the breakthrough that we all experience, which is getting connected with our inner parts, our inner self, and parts of us that we don't want to show. And particularly, women don't want to show to other men. Okay, so it's about vulnerability. I think that so why men men come to the to the breakthrough weekend, for multiple reasons. They come because usually, there's this this phenomenon called the midlife passage or the midlife crisis, somewhere between 40 to 50, which is really the highest incidence of men getting depressed, the highest rate of suicide for men in that area at that time. So depression being isolated, divorce, health reasons, heart attacks, are being fired from their job, something, there's a crisis. So usually, within the minute we do get at that time, they'll who come I really are in some pain, somebody's emotional pain. So when they so the one of the weekend that basically helps men to understand what's happened to them, helping them to learn how to talk with each other, helping them because it's really, Friday night is really kind of interesting, because there are a bunch of men who don't know each other. And they're isolated, and they're afraid and alone. And I know, you know, because you got you're going through it and so heavy. So, but happens is there, but the phenomenon is that men recognize that they're not alone. So my Sunday, the breakthrough is, oh, I'm not alone, oh, I'm vulnerable. It's okay to be that. And I'm not always and that's really healthy. And that's what happens. I mean, in a nutshell, I don't know how else to explain but and, and the things that we help them get there is we have like a smorgasbord. We give them little case Friday night, Saturday morning, you know, and they keep we keep feeding them. We don't know, we don't know which is going to be which for each man, but every man who goes through usually find something that wakes him up.

Yeah, I, I have always been impressed with the community that it that victories creates for men who, as you were even saying, when you first got involved, that you almost didn't maybe realize that you were missing. And then when I went when I first went through and had a taste of Oh, as you said, I'm not alone, there are other people like me, who are struggling in similar or different ways. And we can be there to help each other and, and get some guidance and understand some processes that are safe and effective. To build intimacy and vulnerability. That is a very powerful experience. In particular for men, I think, maybe I've noticed that women tend to be more oriented to having those experiences, maybe there's more structures in play for them and victories really seems to fulfill a deep need that that men have to connect and say, Hey, I'm struggling, and I need some help and, and other men say, Sure, well, we're gonna work with you.

But I absolutely correct that that's exactly the experience.

You know, and, and so we're talking about the breakthrough weekend, which is often the initial weekend that somebody will experience but the journey doesn't necessarily stop there. You were instrumental in creating a different program, which which is a more advanced program, within victories called the shadow weekend. Can you talk a little bit about what the shadow weekend is and why you were so passionate about it?

Sure. I think I was in I know I was influenced by Carl Jung and Carl Jung spoke about art. So what I brought to victories was a lot of this intellectual stuff and I love all that. Reading and all that kind of stuff. Anyway, but the Carl Jung our talks about archetypes so the archetype that we did for the breakthrough weekend is really called the lover archetype and the lover archetype is about connection and relationship and all Putting up, he talks about the net when we and that's the persona, that's the face that we show. He also speaks that the face that we show the world, there's a shadow part of us that we keep, we keep private. And so in order to really complete the I had to go through the shadow weekend myself. And there was no shadow weekend in Chicago. So after I had done the the initial breakthrough weekend, myself, a year later, I found a youngin shadow workshop out in San Francisco. So I went out there and I did the shadow weekend for myself. And I found that yes, I have this persona, this is who I am on the outside, you know, Dr blah, blah, blah, all that good stuff. But there's another part of me and I'd like Jekyll and Hyde. That's the if you want to have an idea. That's the paradigm. So it's the Jekyll and Hyde. So I found I, I found the other part of myself. So when I came back to Kevin and I said, we gotta we can't, it's not a journey is not a complete format. That was the academic thing that I brought, the journey isn't, is not done, when you do the breakthrough, you've got to do the other half, so that you can then have a dialogue with the part of you that you don't even want to see. So that's how we decided to do the shadow we can that's really, if anything, the creation that I'm really the most proud of. Because the break through weekend was really, the foundation was set by buddy and Bob now and we have just used their spine of the weekend to to enlarge the shadow weekend was something that Kevin and I created. And that was really our baby. And we did, we did 10 or 12 shadow we can send it or just really it's incredible. I think every man who goes through the breakthrough, we can have to do the the shadow we can because they you complete the picture of yourself.

And so from what I understand shadow weekend is about getting in touch with the parts of you that maybe are shrouded in feelings like shame or guilt, or I shouldn't have sort of imperfect, what I consider to be imperfect thoughts or imperfect action, but it is part of me and is is the shadow weekend about bringing that stuff from from the shadows. Pardon the pun, into into more of an embracing that I have various aspects of, of myself as an individual, that some of which I I, it's easy for me to share with the world and with myself. Other parts are more difficult is that a fair way to think about the shadow

that's it's really excellent. It's about really consciously recognizing that we can do harm, that we have negative pieces. And rather than hiring that we accept them. And by accepting them, they don't bite you in the ass think about Nixon. But think about all these men and women who are in high positions are in power and they end up their shadow ends up destroying their lives. We're watching it happen now right now in our country. So So yes, it's about conscious, conscious recognition and embracing it with understanding and love and compassion so that you we can we can embrace the good, the bad, the ugly and the beautiful and embrace it all and be kind to ourselves and say okay, fine. I'm not perfect, but I'm not bad either. So that's exactly what we just said there's a really the experience of the integration the conscious acceptance that I have this in me

Yeah, I imagine that as a as a tough pill to swallow for a lot of men who have been ignoring or repressing or pretending that the darker parts of each of us aren't aren't don't exist, or we don't want them to exist because they're messy. And yeah,

I want to read something that I made a C D of the shadow weekend. But anyway, this is what Mrs. Carl Jung's come and he says no tree can grow to heaven. Unless its roots reaching down to hell. Did you like that?

I I'm taking that in because I absolutely, absolutely love that. And

that's him, not me.

Oh, well, it's it's very it's very well said. It reminds me of an expression that I am not going to get perfect. But it's a Native American expression, which has to do with something to the effect of No tree is no tree is foolish enough to, or no branch on a tree is foolish enough to fight with it itself. In other words like the branches of a tree. Yeah, and I didn't say that as elegantly as I should have. But But I guess the idea is that we all have different types of branches. And some of those are lighter and easier to accept others are notable. And if we if we don't acknowledge the entire entire tree and what it does, it's not going to grow correctly. Now, with respect to your own practice, how have you seen? How have you seen men really benefit from going through the break through weekend, the shadow weekend and staying connected, because in victories for those that aren't familiar, they're not just weekend programming. Those are the major events that that men can attend. But then there's, I guess, what I might call aftercare, which which or community is maybe a better way is that you can continue on having, you know, regular interactions, maybe with the men that you went on the weekends with, or other men who have been in victories, who are looking to continue that connection, and have regular meetings where you can continue to share what's happening in your life. I'm just curious at how you've seen that impact people over Gosh, 35 years now?

That's a great question. I can, as you were talking, the word that came came to my mind was

accelerant. accelerant

that many men that I worked with him from my own practice, when you're on the weekend, not on my weekend, but another men's weekend, because I didn't want them to be with me on the weekends. But they come back accelerated. I mean, it's like adding adding some fire fluids to it just accelerates the therapy, and it becomes deeper. And we encourage men who are in therapy, when they do the weekend to go back into therapy, because they get they get a fuller picture. So I have found that it doesn't hinder, I just helps men grow faster, and they're able to make connections to other parts of themselves, that maybe they missed in the individual. The other piece I need to just think about right now I tell you, there's this whole concept called embodiment. And this is a good place to talk about it for a second. embodiment means just what the Word says, embodying them, that when you're sitting in the office, and you're talking about feelings, and you're talking about your life, it's a one to one like you and I are having when you go on the weekend, not only are you talking about it, but your body is moving, you do activities, you do, psychodrama, you do things that bring it's about it's one thing to understand ourselves up here in the in the brain, but the body needs to learn it. And you don't learn it as fast in the office as you do on the weekend. So what what that what happens is they come back with an embodiment, they have a gut feeling of the issues that they were talking about in the office, they get to they experience them on a gut level, body wise, so the body has to learn to you. And I said, as we truncate ourselves here, you know, from the epidemic. So I think that's one of the things it's an excellent accelerant is an embodiment. And those are the positives that I see.

And as an organization, you've seen a lot of changes in growth within victories itself, being able to offer more services to the members being able to offer different experiences on the weekend, with different weekend programming and ongoing events that victories promotes that are, you know, shorter duration. They bring in speakers, they have different workshops, and lots of different programming. I'm curious and how you've seen victories evolve. We also there we have new committees, tackling maybe even some social issues, you know, and I'm curious on you know, how you've seen victories continue to evolve.

It's interesting.

I think we're evolving because our culture is evolving. Men met men. When I grew up as a little boy of many, many years ago, there was a certain kind of stereotype of what a man was. Was I think that the evolution of what a man is today in our culture, what the young men are doing in the 20s in the 30s. So I so I said, we're evolving because we have to pay attention to the fact that men are different men are not the kind of men that I was that I was. I mean, there are a lot of us around yet, but there are a lot more different. You know, we're talking about we're talking about diversity, we're talking about the, the George Floyd's death, a couple of years ago has had a huge transformative waking up effect for for, for us, because we really have been more like a North Shore, we really have, we've reached out to men of color, but we really have not been extremely successful. I think that we're becoming larger, we're recognizing that the community of men are gender and gay, and by and no the end and also the men of color. So we're, we're waking up. I think that over the last few years, I've seen, we did we used to we did reach out to community, we had community events we gave to to charities, but it was always a bunch of us on the North Shore and doing this, this is this, this is different. I think there were a very seminal moment in victories that we're becoming larger. We're having a sexuality seminar that the coming up in October, we have a diversity committee, we're looking at not only men of color, but we've had gay men because of our weapons, we've had trans trans human beings come in on the weekend, so and we're able to, to grow into accommodate, so we're moving in that direction. That's how I see the difference.

Yeah, it seems like victories has really, in the last many years, recent years made a huge effort that I've noticed as well. And I know that sometimes communication from victories leadership is is is challenging to keep the members informed of what's happening. Because there's so much happening, and it's Everyone's so busy in their lives, it's easy to sort of miss some of the cool things that victories is doing to support different types of members that maybe didn't get as as much attention as, as previously. And there's now diversity committees there with, you know, inclusion committees, there's committees to make sure that that anyone who wants to really get involved with with victories, you know, note can learn about it, and, and also to its there are sponsorships, or there's scholarships, rather, for men that are even economically disadvantaged, that can still attend some of the programming. And I think that's, that's right in line with how I see victories helping men, yes, they are an organization and they need funding to continue. But they they give back quite a bit to to people who otherwise wouldn't maybe have access to professional help. And communities that victories have created. I think it's, it's,

that's why we've never all the years that I know, we've never turned anybody away because of no one have didn't have money, we give them a scholarship, other men will help you out. So no man,

any man can come whether they have money or not.

And outside of the weekends, you and also the leadership that you've been involved in with the various committees and being a board member, you are also active in your own work within victories. So can you talk a little bit about how why you still are, you know, doing your own work personally. And and you mentioned earlier that yes, you're never done. And there's always more work to do, of course on on anyone for the for their own challenges. But you know, what, why do you continue to do it? Today? Is it you know, not everyone would stay with an organization for 35 years. But you have and you're not just a leader, but you're a participant as well. In fact, you are probably you'll participate and maybe more events than just about any member of victories. So you're not just somebody who leads the charge. You're also part of the group. And can you talk about what that means to you to still be part of the part of the audience? Gosh,

that's a great quote. Session. I don't know other than I get a lot of satisfaction out of,

out of being able to help.

I know the beauty of, of enlightenment, I know the beauty of in my own life of how the more I've learned, the more I become happier and the more expansive and I just started never really, no one's ever asked me this question before, it's bringing tears to my eyes, because I didn't realize

why I'm doing it. I think I'm doing it for a lot of selfish reasons.

So I'll pick I own that's my shadow, my shadow gets a lot of a lot of you out of it. I love the work. I love the I love the praise. I love working with you. So I get I get a lot out of it. Personally, that's that's the shadow part of me. That's what a narcissistic parts of me. But there's, there's more to me than that. I mean, those are the Enlightened parts of me that I want other people to experience the joy, I guess.

You Really Got Me?

Well, I honor you for your humility.

It's really, I never realized that. It's joyful for me, at the end of the weekend was at the end on Sunday. And the joy that I see in the men's eyes, and I just feel that I want

everybody to have it as your wife. Sounds like a gift that continues to give not only to to the men that you support, but also to yourself. And that's I think that's clear. And thank you for for sharing that that side of you.

And yeah, you got me, you got to be a bit too if

I'd never you ask a good question. And I didn't know I would get to this at all. Not

at all. Well, it's it's easy with somebody who has has such an impressive history with the organization and you are extremely well respected in your field professionally. I was just just as a pullback, pulling back the curtain a little bit on on on me just because it just happened in an hour before we started, I was doing my own individual therapy. And my my therapist just happens to be in Evanston, Illinois as well, just coincidentally, and I said, Oh, I'm I'm starting going to be hosting this show for victories and, and she said, Oh, that's great. And, and I said, Yeah, but you might even you may know my first guest, or the first guest that we're having and Dr. Paul catorce. And she goes, she said, her name, her name is Jean. Anyway, she said, Oh, I know of him. And you know, she's he is a wonderful man. So it's it's really funny that just prior to us coming on, I was able to talk with somebody who doesn't know you personally, but knows of you. And the effect you've had on, you know, people in not only the Evanston community with your private practice, and also just, you know, within victories itself. So your reputation is, is certainly impressive, and also well deserved.

It's very young, given that you talk to young would love that, because he talks about synchronicity, and serendipity. So he would say now, if you were with us, you say, Hey, guys, that's not an accident. This was meant to happen. Well, he would say

it is it was a nice thing to happen this morning. And it was a good reminder that, that, you know, capturing conversations with people who are within the victories organization and also outside of victories who are involved in men's work is really important, I think for posterity and understanding history. And you are somebody who has essentially been part of the build, you know, the construction team of victories for 35 years. And you you show up, you continue to show up. It's obvious to people within the organization, of course, how much you are present, and continue to be as as you move through life. I'm just curious on if, if there was what my will ask question is about if you could wave a magic wand over the victories organization where fight you know, financing or money wouldn't is no isn't an issue that we could reach anyone that we wanted to? What would be your wish for victories as it continues to evolve? This is you know, what direction would you like to see it continue to edit?

Well, it's interesting.

I think

if I had, I've had fantasies about this, by the way, I keep thinking that if I win the lottery, the number one thing I would do is I would set aside a foundation explicit explicitly for men and it would be like a men's Institute of Some sort of victories, but I'll comment there are multiple men's organizations in Chicago and around the country. So not victory is not the only one. There's a many multiple, and they're all wonderful organizations, for men, I would like to do something that would not only bring victories together, but really make a call, you know, make begin to make a national input, how crucial it is for men to change. So that's a B would be my number. So that my one would be that, also, I'd love to have a building a place, that would be called like victories, or building a nice big building somewhere that we can have meeting rooms, auditoriums, I, I would like that, I would like to be able to be able to have as many outreach programs as we can. So I would just like to expand that include as many men as possible, but we also have to really honor women, women are very powerful in support. And one of the things I hadn't I'd need to mention is that so many women have really had been instrumental in the in supporting victories and making it happen. So but that will be my my larger one. And then I think just continuing, the other piece is continuing to keep our own victories, men, community together with each other, more connections, more, making sure that all of these groups that we have, you know, we've talked about that before, I think that's also very important to keep a connection and keeping the organic victories of the other men who have gone through going, because what happens a lot admins are splinter off again. So those are the the kind of the ideas and all, and we're also working on a program for the for young men between 20 and 30. Because I think this is a very important quad like the half a quarter crisis. And that's another piece that we need. So I think they're looking at the organization and looking at other needs of infants and providing more, you know, we have a couples couples program now and we need to look at the quarter crisis. And so, you know, that's kind of where my mind was.

Do you mind just explaining quarter crisis? That's a term I wasn't I'm not familiar with.

Quarter crisis is something that's that's been looked at over the last few years, but by by actually by adolescent and young, adolescent psychiatrists and psychologists. It's, it's somewhere between 20 and 30 is a very vital moment where men and women, it's your you begin to, you know, it's, it's about identity formation. It's about who am I? How am I going to be in the world? How am I going to have a relationship with whom am I going to have a relationship? It seems to be more acute now than ever, as you can probably see a lot of men in the 20s to 30s. And women, there, many of them, a lot of men, particularly young men, in their mid 20s, don't have a job. They're in the basement of their parents house. So that's what we're looking at. That's what the four questions is, Who am I going to be? As, as an adult? I came out of my adolescence, I have a mortgage, job or college, but then within what, you know, what is my identity? How am I going to work in the world? How am I going to make a place for myself? What am I what talents do I have? Those are the questions. That's the crisis, as we're having this,

those men are are the men in their 20s are probably some of the most challenging to reach. Because they are still fight, as you said, finding their way they're also limited in resources, usually at that at those ages, or most limited. I know, I was most limited during those times that that time of my life. And I didn't. I was still growing and still trying to, as you say, find your way. And I don't recall there being a lot of programming available or if there was for me at that age, I didn't come across it. So I think I think that's a very noble effort to try to think about how do we reach men at that age and support them?

Yeah, well, we have a subcommittee already in the brief for the weekend leadership. Of course, of course. I you anyway. Yes, we have we've been we already have been talking about it and we're trying to see who can can we bring something to fruition in 2023 That's what we're working on it now.

It's really impressive because you're essentially creating programming to cover the entirety of someone's life. You have breakthrough weekend for a good introductory course for For men who already are maybe past that initial 20, to 30, you know, sort of range where where they're not even aware that this sort of these these events and programming exist, then you're working on something for the men, you know, who are younger? And then we also we didn't mention, and we can we, you know, we don't have to talk about it in detail here. But we have programming as well for men in the later stages of life, which is, you know, do you mind sharing just a little bit about that as well?

Oh, absolutely. I would be remiss, because you see, buddy, and Bob, of course, being the great creators that they are at work, Bob is still with us. But he has really been an inspiration he passed years ago. But they went ahead afterwards and created the wisdom years, and which has been a, it's been a magnificent, magnificent program to cover 5060s and 70s. And so that that continues. And so we now at this point in time, we do have not only the breakthrough, we can the shadow we can we also have the wisdom years, and then we created another one in between called the best self. So the best self is another one. So we're so good. But yes, it's crucial. If you've done the break through when you get to be 60 or 50 6070, it's crucial to look at the wisdom years, because that's when we decide what are we going to do with our lives? And then because now our lives are kind of ending? And how do you keep yourself going so so and then we can be set with other men who are going through the same, you know, physical changes, sexual diminishing, unannounced, so there's, so we have that. So we, we, you're right, I think we'd look at just sum it up, as we look at victories as a continuum, from the beginning, to the end of our lives and having programs, so the different phases of human development, like a curriculum, we talk about it in the program committee that victories over offers a curriculum through the life stages of men.

Well, I think that is a perfect summation for, for victories as an organization. And I am hopeful that our audience now has a better awareness of what victories is all about your role in the organization, and also some of your own personal transformation that you've experienced, and also your authenticity, I believe, is has come through in just crystal clear in this conversation. And so choosing you as are having you, as our first guest, I think is, is APA is really appropriate. And we are grateful for your years of service to the organization. Of course, as well, as, you know, being a part of this podcast, and being a real champion for getting this launched as well, we should I should mention that Paul was was instrumental in helping us, you know, develop this product to reach, hopefully more, more men and also continue to support our existing members. And so we are so grateful, Paul, to have you on the show. And we want to thank you on behalf of everyone within victories, of course, as well as everyone listening, who's now been introduced to you for the first time for coming on and talking from the heart, about your experience with the organization. So we want to thank everyone on behalf of Paul and myself for making it to the end of our first episode. And please, that we asked you, if you found this to be valuable to just think about telling one other man about the about the show, in fact, don't have to it doesn't even have to be a man. You can tell anybody you'd like who might benefit from hearing this great conversation with Paul. And you can always visit the victories website, which also has information about the podcast, at victories for men.org. Again, victories for men.org. If you're listening to this on a podcast app, the if you look in the show notes, you'll see a link to to the victories website as well as our social media. And you can learn about our programming and different events and get involved in many different ways. Well, Paul, thank you for your time and your service, and we will see everybody on the next episode. Thanks, Paul.

I'm humbled and honored. Thank

you